See, the part I find funny is that politicizing everything you do is in itself a modern web invention, mostly from Tumblr. I find the whole notion that "making a Neocities is resistance" to be pretentious, factually incorrect, and cheapening actual resistance. Because ultimately, it's a hobby. It's no more inherently advocacy than drawing or writing. (See my rant about the Linux fandom on my thoughts archive.)
Treating it as inherently resistance-y ends up scaring off folks who'd rather not be politicized against their will and encouraging folks being stuck up without actually doing anything. And really, the whole thing is "look at how virtuous I am" which is in itself an algorithmic social media BS move. Hence why I don't have a "manifesto" for this site and refuse to be called part of any "movement" I don't call myself.
'Cause, well, it isn't. Using FOSS software, or making your own site, or drawing, or writing fanfic, can be incorporated into resistance (TM), but they're not inherently that. They're hobbies. They're fandoms. And as long as we pat ourselves on the back for doing them, they're never going to be anything more.
@draggianuniverse i meant it more in a "joy is an act of resistance" type way. but you have a point. granted my feelings on the politicization of everything is complicated. because i do feel like there are political aspects to everything but also idc if someone enjoys a show with "bad political messaging" because the fact is most shows do & it's ok to wanna just enjoy shit
What I was going to say before Neocities had a server outage or something was that the whole thing just stings of insecurity. It's like folks don't feel okay just liking things for fear of being deemed "problematic" so they have to make up some BS about it being revolutionary, which is factually incorrect and just no fun.
And then you get folks joining "indie web" stuff BECAUSE it's trendy or a movement or w/e, which kind of negates the whole point of not doing algorithmic shit in the first place. If you take your 0 nuance Tumblr political takes to Neocities with you, you're not really addressing the core reason that the whole "movement" (which isn't) exists.
And ultimately, I don't think the politicization of everything has accomplished anything except making people feel bad for liking things and reducing spaces people can have reasoned discussions without someone jumping down their throat. Really, I'm of the opinion that no Tumblr / Neocities "advocacy" in the form of hot takes has ever helped anyone.
You're right that there are political aspects to everything, and there's a need for spaces to talk about that. But there's also a need for spaces where folks can legitimately decompress, and I think treating the "indie web" as a movement just robs it of that potential while not actually helping anybody, because ultimately it really isn't an act of resistance in any meaningful sense. It's just a hobby and that's ok.
@draggianuniverse yeah it kinda reminds me. i have a problem when people take their shipping discourse baggage and put it on their website. like they can do what they want, but ultimately shipping discourse isn't that deep, or at least as deep as it's made out to be
wow nice (1) nobody is meant to be a revolutionary, how political you make things is determined by your conditions of life and your personal choices (2) antagonizing apolitical people can be an effective political tactic, even if it turns them against you (3) never been on tumblr and I'm so fucking thankful for that (4) unfortunately neocities is work for me, I always come back to it out of necessity, not fun (see 1)
@proletarian-library 1. that is true. i just think it's a problem that capitalism forces us to be. 2. i think draggan is mostly talking abt people who KNOW their lives are political but want a moment to forget abt that. that said i get what you're saying. 3. lol as you should be. 4. that's also true. some ppl make their site for educational purposes rather than fun & that should be acknowledged too
wrt 2. if not everyone is living in a world without pain, nobody should be allowed a moment of peace. it's a controversial take but slowly it is starting to make more sense.
also agree that this corner of the internet cannot be the only resistance we do. "joy is an act of resistance" is a phrase thrown around so much it seems to have lost all meaning
@limovars i can see your perspective. i just think that unless you're gonna use your suffering to aliviate theirs, there's no point in adding more suffering. but i can get why "ignoring the problem" is a problem itself
wait the use of nostalgia and the internet has literally been on my mind so much lately and i actually recently started reading scorched earth by jonathan crary and i haven't finished it yet but the first chapter talks a lot about the false narrative of the early internet being this revolutionary, anti-capitalist/commercial place when it really wasn't(in the way that people think it was)
and how even then but especially now, over emphasis on using the internet as a channel of resistance is actually very detrimental to revolutionary efforts because of how it saps peoples will to act in more meaningful ways.
also i feel like many people are calling for a return to the old internet thinking it will somehow solve the problems of rampant commodification and monetization we have rn but i think of the internet as basically like digital land as in it's all owned by somebody like there's no real free spaces or commons. even here on neocities, it only exists because one person allows it to exist and it can disappear at any time.
@d6001 yeah that makes sense. after all geocities was owned by yahoo at one point right? like we shouldn't rely too much on the internet, since as much as it can educate ppl, it can also demotivate & misinform them
" the internet will never be free if we live in a society that cares more about profit than people's lives." true facts...
See, the part I find funny is that politicizing everything you do is in itself a modern web invention, mostly from Tumblr. I find the whole notion that "making a Neocities is resistance" to be pretentious, factually incorrect, and cheapening actual resistance. Because ultimately, it's a hobby. It's no more inherently advocacy than drawing or writing. (See my rant about the Linux fandom on my thoughts archive.)
Treating it as inherently resistance-y ends up scaring off folks who'd rather not be politicized against their will and encouraging folks being stuck up without actually doing anything. And really, the whole thing is "look at how virtuous I am" which is in itself an algorithmic social media BS move. Hence why I don't have a "manifesto" for this site and refuse to be called part of any "movement" I don't call myself.
'Cause, well, it isn't. Using FOSS software, or making your own site, or drawing, or writing fanfic, can be incorporated into resistance (TM), but they're not inherently that. They're hobbies. They're fandoms. And as long as we pat ourselves on the back for doing them, they're never going to be anything more.
@draggianuniverse i meant it more in a "joy is an act of resistance" type way. but you have a point. granted my feelings on the politicization of everything is complicated. because i do feel like there are political aspects to everything but also idc if someone enjoys a show with "bad political messaging" because the fact is most shows do & it's ok to wanna just enjoy shit
What I was going to say before Neocities had a server outage or something was that the whole thing just stings of insecurity. It's like folks don't feel okay just liking things for fear of being deemed "problematic" so they have to make up some BS about it being revolutionary, which is factually incorrect and just no fun.
And then you get folks joining "indie web" stuff BECAUSE it's trendy or a movement or w/e, which kind of negates the whole point of not doing algorithmic shit in the first place. If you take your 0 nuance Tumblr political takes to Neocities with you, you're not really addressing the core reason that the whole "movement" (which isn't) exists.
And ultimately, I don't think the politicization of everything has accomplished anything except making people feel bad for liking things and reducing spaces people can have reasoned discussions without someone jumping down their throat. Really, I'm of the opinion that no Tumblr / Neocities "advocacy" in the form of hot takes has ever helped anyone.
You're right that there are political aspects to everything, and there's a need for spaces to talk about that. But there's also a need for spaces where folks can legitimately decompress, and I think treating the "indie web" as a movement just robs it of that potential while not actually helping anybody, because ultimately it really isn't an act of resistance in any meaningful sense. It's just a hobby and that's ok.
@draggianuniverse yeah it kinda reminds me. i have a problem when people take their shipping discourse baggage and put it on their website. like they can do what they want, but ultimately shipping discourse isn't that deep, or at least as deep as it's made out to be
wow nice (1) nobody is meant to be a revolutionary, how political you make things is determined by your conditions of life and your personal choices (2) antagonizing apolitical people can be an effective political tactic, even if it turns them against you (3) never been on tumblr and I'm so fucking thankful for that (4) unfortunately neocities is work for me, I always come back to it out of necessity, not fun (see 1)
@proletarian-library 1. that is true. i just think it's a problem that capitalism forces us to be. 2. i think draggan is mostly talking abt people who KNOW their lives are political but want a moment to forget abt that. that said i get what you're saying. 3. lol as you should be. 4. that's also true. some ppl make their site for educational purposes rather than fun & that should be acknowledged too
wrt 2. if not everyone is living in a world without pain, nobody should be allowed a moment of peace. it's a controversial take but slowly it is starting to make more sense.
also agree that this corner of the internet cannot be the only resistance we do. "joy is an act of resistance" is a phrase thrown around so much it seems to have lost all meaning
@limovars i can see your perspective. i just think that unless you're gonna use your suffering to aliviate theirs, there's no point in adding more suffering. but i can get why "ignoring the problem" is a problem itself
wait the use of nostalgia and the internet has literally been on my mind so much lately and i actually recently started reading scorched earth by jonathan crary and i haven't finished it yet but the first chapter talks a lot about the false narrative of the early internet being this revolutionary, anti-capitalist/commercial place when it really wasn't(in the way that people think it was)
and how even then but especially now, over emphasis on using the internet as a channel of resistance is actually very detrimental to revolutionary efforts because of how it saps peoples will to act in more meaningful ways.
also i feel like many people are calling for a return to the old internet thinking it will somehow solve the problems of rampant commodification and monetization we have rn but i think of the internet as basically like digital land as in it's all owned by somebody like there's no real free spaces or commons. even here on neocities, it only exists because one person allows it to exist and it can disappear at any time.
@d6001 yeah that makes sense. after all geocities was owned by yahoo at one point right? like we shouldn't rely too much on the internet, since as much as it can educate ppl, it can also demotivate & misinform them
@d6001 plus like you said, there's still question of "ownership". the only way to truly own your own space is self-hosting & that costs money